Open letter to Maiorianus
channel: https://www.youtube.com/@Maiorianus_Sebastian
french version: https://www.youtube.com/@LEssentieldelHistoire/videos
Dear Sebastian,
Congratulation for you great
channel ! I pretty like your analyses, but I am writing to you here to point
out important missing points in your videos about this very critical topic to understand the history
of our civilization.
I agree with you that the great cause of the fall of western
roman empire is the collapse of the army caused by civil war in the west.
Mostly Magnentius revolt in 350, then Frigidius battle in 394 weakened the
army, but both are linked to revolts against Christianity. In fact, Magnentius,
Julian and Arbogast-Eugenius are all the same movement. Always pagan revolt
starting from Gaulle.
It would be interesting to develop more these aspects that
are under-explained on your channel so far. You may not want to attack Christianity
like me on my channel, but you could at least not hide simple basic facts, essential to
understand what happened and still strongly missing on your channel.
The fall of Stilicho in 408 is also very important in the disorganization
of the army and in the fall of Rome. This is also directly linked to the
religious conflict, but few contemporary historians talk now about this.
"The minister Olympius said to the emperor Honorius
about the son of Stilicho "that his son already had a powerful party; who
desired him for a master, in the hope that he would raise up idolatry; that
[Stilicho] the father , a Christian in appearance, had brought up his son in
paganism, in order to unite the two great parties which divided the whole
empire"
Charles Le Beau. Histoire du
Bas-Empire en commençant à Constantin le Grand
"in the opinion of Christians the education of
Eucherius was tainted with paganism. A master of rhetoric, philosophy, poetry,
interpreter of systems or literary works based on polytheism, was quite
naturally suspected of being himself a pagan, however little he admired his
models: but from master to pupil there was only one step, and the assiduous
presence of Claudian in Serene's family gave enough natural color to
suppositions. stopping to elucidate nothing, the parties decided that Eucherius
was a pagan. They went so far as to quote threatening remarks from him against
Christianity. A new Julian, it was said, he had promised the hierophants and
the sophists, his masters, to inaugurate his principality by the restoration of
the temples and the overthrow of the churches"
Amedee Thierry. Review of the two worlds. Three Ministers of the Roman Empire
under the sons of Theodosius.
"The clergy, devoutly celebrating the happy day (of the
death of Stilicho) which had almost miraculously delivered the Church from it,
assured that if Eucherius (the son of Stilicho) had reigned, the first act of
his power would have been to restore the worship of idols and to renew the
persecutions against Christians."
Edward Gibbons, chap XXX
I hope you will one day talk about all of this on you
channel.
Moreover, you don't talk of the law in 395, 408 and then 416
to remove pagans from the army (see general Generidus in Zosimus which resigns
temporary in 408 because pagans are no longer allowed to serve).
It is another obvious reason for the disorganization and collapse
of the army. Christian emperors are afraid of pagan revolts and remove pagans
from the army.
In 431, Pope Celestine
writes that the cause of faith (fide causa) is more important than that of the
state. The emperor must put the peace of the churches before the security of
the world (omnium securitas terrarum). This is admission of a conflict between
the interest of the church and those of the state. This is the policy carried
out: favoring church not state safety. Essential to known !
Now about the sac of 410 of Rome, historian André Piganiol
wrote:
"[if the remaining troops are not employed to save Rome perhaps we have
the right to talk of treason" "[For André Piganiol, the fundamentalist
Christians of the imperial court who participated in the fall of
Stilicho]
Olympius, Serena are directly responsible for the fall of Rome" "We
suspect, without the proof, that the sack of 410 was wanted and
prepared
by the Christian fanatics who were hiding in the shadow of Honorius.".
The use of barbarian against pagans to punish them is indeed
suggested by many sources:
- the pagan "Eunape (in vit. Philosoph.) suggests that
a band of monks betrayed Greece and followed the army of the Goths (in
395)" Gibbon, chap XXX) and Augustine confirms that the Goths were excited
by the priests against paganism: "[the barbarian Visigoths of Alaric]
showed themselves so bitter enemies of the demons and of all that worship in
which Radagaise placed his confidence, that they seemed to have declared a more
terrible war on the idols than on the men." Augustine, city of god
"Alaric
declared war on the Western Empire, ravaged Pannonia, Macedonia, Thessaly, and
finding nothing to stand in his way, he invaded Greece. His soldiers destroyed
the most beautiful pagan monuments of this country" " The Goths were
Arian and very much attached to the beliefs of this sect. Their devastating
fury was chiefly directed against pagan temples and simulacra." Arthur
Beugnot, History of the Destruction of Paganism
- According to Claudian, Stilicho was in a position to
destroy them, but was ordered by Arcadius to return the Eastern Empire's forces
and leave Illyricum.
- "the Christian advisers of the prince did not forget
the horror of the blasphemies committed in Rome in 406". For Paul Orosius
[the explanation of the sack of Rome is that] God decided to build this storm
of blasphemies which broke out in Rome in the summer of 408". Paul Orosius
writes "that unbelief and disobedience will be left as dung and chaff to
be destroyed and burned".
- We have seen the maneuvers of Minister Olympus.
- "[the Christian] Serena was accused of wanting to
deliver the city to the barbarians" the Christian Serena, niece of
Theodosius executed for collusion with Alaric on the orders of the senate
shortly before the sack of Rome accused by Zosimos, fanatical Christian accused
of having prophaned the temple of the vestals.
- the Christian Anicia Faltonia Proba will be accused of
having opened the doors to the barbarians (according to the Christian Procope).
- Emperor Honorius accused of having himself called the
barbarians to reprimand his own subjects" (according to the Christian
Procopius of Caesarea, History of the Vandal War, I, II). 6th century
In 416 the christian emperor Honorius prefers to use Visigoth
as mercenary (which burnt Rome 6 years before) than having pagans in the army !
A proof of betrayal for me.
This is the real explanation of the fall, and your vey
pleasant channel still hide essential information that do not allow to understand
what really happened.
I am a philosopher and I have also created videos and a web
page about the fall of Rome for my channel (in french, so use google translation). You may find some interesting
things for your channel here.
Best regards
Willeime
june 2023
Bonjour Willeime,
thank you for your excellent analysis 👍 I am always happy to engage in scholarly discussions.
You are raising some good points here. In my channel, I often
critisized early Christianity for its aggressive intolerance towards
pagans, and the destruction of many statues and some of the old
greco-roman temples.
For example such as what happened in Alexandria in 392, when the
Serapion was destroyed, or in Carthage after 400 AD, when Augustine
instigated religious riots, where 60 people were killed. I am extremely
critical of early Christianity.
I also talked about Marcellinus of Dalmatia, who was still Pagan, and
about Anthemius, who was possibly the last real Pagan western Roman
Emperor, who according to Damascius, tried to restore the temple of
Jupiter in Rome as late as 472 AD. (But Ricimer's aggression hindered
the fulfillment of this plan :/ )
Anyways, I am unsure though, about the points you raise with the army.
It certainly might be a contributing factory, yes, another one of 100
contributing factors for the fall of Western Rome, there are just soooo
many reasons, and we could talk for years to find out which are the
most important.
But if, as you say, Pagans not being allowed to serve, was the main
factor for the fall of the Western Empire, then why was the East so
successful? Belisarius was Christian. Justinian was Christian. Some of
the most successful emperors and generals of the East were all
Christians, but as far as I am aware,
they achieved resounding successes.
Then we have emperor Majorian: One of the most successful emperors
ever, also Christian. I am very sure that he was religiously tolerant,
because he worked together with Marcellinus of Dalmatia, who was pagan.
I think the situation is more complicated: There were many "Christians"
who were in reality converted Pagans, and were actually still secretly
Pagans. Probably more than 50% of them were.
Also, the law of not allowing Pagans to serve, I understood the law to
forbid them state offices, but not from serving in the army. Do you
have a good source that proves that they were not allowed to serve in
the army? That would be interesting.
I am adding your remark to my future video list and will investigate
further. If you could send me some further sources, I would highly
appreciate 👍
Thanks again, merci beaucoup monsieur,
all the best,
Sebastian
Dear Sebastian,
Thanks for your answer, but there is a misunderstanding.
I have never
said that Christians don't fight and can't be strong fighters ! They
indeed fight and kill many pagans ! There are not peaceful
pacifists showed in most movies. Georges de Lydda, Bacurius (at
Frigidus),
Artème d'Antioche, Polyeucte, Théodore Tiron, Mercure de Césarée,
Martin de
Tour, Contantin, Théodose were all Christians soldiers. Many Christian
martyrs
were from the army.
I also agree that many "Christians" are in fact
crypto-pagans or not true Christians at that time (Eugenius, Pegasios(met by
julian), Hekebolius (julian), Synesius).
Majorian seems a weak (or doubtful) Christian, like
Stilicho, collaborating with pagans.
What I was pointing out in my message was that most people
were still pagans in early Vth century in the west. So removing pagans from the
army is an IMPORTANT explanation for the collapse of the army in early Vth
century. The east was less attacked at that time and with already a larger Christian
population in the east, so the problem was less severe there than in the west.
Check this from the codex Codex Theodosianus (CT)
395 CT 16.5.29
"Specifically directs Marcellus, the master of offices,
to investigate whether any heretics are present in the imperial service. If so,
they are to be removed from service and exiled outside of Constantinople."
408 CT 16.5.42
"Persons who disagree with the Emperor on matters of
religion are not be allowed to serve in the palace or any imperial post."
this law was transiently canceled because of the big mess it
created in 408-409 (see generidus in Zosimus), but still implicated in the fall
of Rome.
"While he adhered to ancient ordinances, and could not
endure to relinquish the old mode of worshipping the gods, a law was
promulgated prohibiting all who were not Christians from wearing a girdle in
the court. This law being established, Generidus, who was at that time a
military officer in Rome, laid aside his girdle and remained in his own house.
The emperor requiring him, as one enrolled among the officers, to attend at
court in his due course, he replied that there was a law which forbade him the
use of a girdle, or that any one should be reckoned among the officers who did
not reverence the Christian religion. The emperor answered, that the law indeed
was obligatory on all others, but excepted him alone, who had undertaken such
dangerous enterprises for the commonwealth. Generidus said in reply, that he
could not suffer himself to accept of an honor that appeared to affront all who
by means of that law had been put out of commission. Nor did he execute his
office, until the emperor, compelled both by necessity and shame, completely
abolished the law, and gave all persons liberty of enjoying their own
sentiments in all offices, whether civil or military."
https://www.livius.org/sources/content/zosimus/zosimus-new-history-5/zosimus-new-history-5.46/
but the law was reestablished and even reinforced in 416 CT
16.10.21
the text on https://web.archive.org/web/20081025050453/http:/www.fourthcentury.com/index.php/imperial-laws-chart-395
says: "Pagans shall not become administrators or
judges. In fact, they may not enter the imperial service at all."
but the translation is incomplete. the translation of
"militiam admittantur" is missing. the latin version says:
"Idem aa. Aureliano praefecto praetorio II.
Post alia: qui profano pagani ritus errore seu crimine polluuntur, hoc est
gentiles, nec ad militiam admittantur nec administratoris vel iudicis honore
decorentur.
Dat. VII id. dec. d. n. Theodosio a.
VII et Palladio conss. (416 dec. 7)."
https://droitromain.univ-grenoble-alpes.fr/Constitutiones/CTh16.html
translation: "those who are defiled by pagan heathen
rites, error or crime, that is Gentiles, shall not be admitted to the army, nor
be decorated with the honor of an administrator or a judge.
militiam: military service
https://glosbe.com/la/en/militiam
https://www.wordsense.eu/militiam/
in latin militiam is the accusative of the word
"mīlitia" it refers to army, military force/service, soldiery,
warfare, war, campaign, civil service, profession, employment
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/militia#Latin
several French books acknowledge that the correct meaning of
this law is the exclusion of all people that have participated to pagan rite
from the army
another French book says: "pagans are removed to any
military and civil positions"
but you can find it directly in English on this site:
"Pagans to be barred from military service and other forms of
service."
https://earlychurchtexts.com/main/codextheodos/codex_theodosianus_03_local_morph.shtml
also here in English: "A law, dated to December 7, 416,
forbids the gentiles both to enter the military and to become administrators or
judges"
http://www.revue-etudes-tardo-antiques.fr/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Supplement-7.pdf
in 418 the same law exists for jews CT 16.8.24
"All services will be closed to those who live in
Judaic superstition. However, we accept that those who have taken the oaths of
the civil service, whether they are agents in rebus or civil servants, can
complete their service, voluntarily ignoring the fact without however approving
it. But the tolerance that we want to admit exists for a few will not be
allowed in the future. As for those of whom it is established that they belong
to the army while being linked to this perverse people, we decide without
possible discussion that their belts will be removed, without their former
merits being able to plead in their favor. As for the Jews educated in liberal
disciplines, We absolutely do not deprive them of the possibility of practicing
the profession of lawyer, and We authorize them to enjoy the honors attached to
curial functions, which they have the good fortune to hope for. by virtue of
the prerogatives of their birth and the glory of their family. Since they must
be satisfied with these advantages, they must not regard the prohibition of
imperial service as a mark of infamy."
http://telma.irht.cnrs.fr/outils/relmin/extrait238329/
as explained in French commentary translated here: "For
the Jewish civil servants of the Palace, the law is valid only for the future,
not affecting those who are already in office. But for military Jews in the
Western army, it is of immediate applicability. They will be "taken off
their belt" (cingulum militis absolvi), an expression that represents
exclusion from the army or the administration in general."
http://telma.irht.cnrs.fr/outils/relmin/extrait238329/
Read all the laws of that time. You will see that Jews are
more tolerated than pagans. Jews are still allowed to have Christian slaves!
In 415 CT 16.9.3 "Jews are allowed to hold Christian
slaves provided that the slaves are allowed to retain their Christianity."
But Jews are also excluded from the army in 418 ! So pagans
are obviously even more excluded from the army than Jews.
At that time, Christian emperors were afraid of pagan revolt
(as well as of all non-nicean Christians). The civil war because of religion
was not finished (Augustin, city of god). In 408 the pagan population in Rome
city was insulting Jesus. Honorius had to prevent a new pagan revolt. the same
in Africa. a law CT 16.5.46 against outrages toward bishops.
As explained in my previous email Stilicho death in 408 is
also related to this religious civil war.
Then in 409 Attalus (Rome prefect) was leading a pagan
revolt and Honorius was close to escape, but then he received a help from the
east.
Pagan resistance continued with emperor Jean (Flavius
Ioannes Augustus) in 423 which was also a pagan and canceled anti-pagan laws,
but was killed by the east.
in 423 all pagans are persecuted just to be pagans CT
16.10.23
"Pagans are to be exiled and have their possessions
confiscated."
Not the jews, that are again more tolerated.
So, work more pagan revolts at that time and pagan persecutions
that are completely hidden by most historians, but are essential to understand that
is was really a hard conflict of that time.
Best regards
Willeime
Hello Willeime,
wow, these are really excellent sources 👍 Thank you for sending them
to me. This is indeed a law which from the Theodosian codex which I did
not know. Or I thought that indeed many of the laws were not practiced
very stringently.
But barring Pagans from military service, would certainly explain the
extreme difficulty of recruiting new soldiers, and why the Western
legions dissolved ever faster in the 5th century, because there weren't
enough new recruits, if 50+% of the population was still Pagan.
Of course there were many other factors, civil wars, low quality of
coins, worse equipment, etc, but definitely barring Pagans from
entering the army must have been also an important factor. Thank you
for bringing this to my attention.
Highly interesting ! You can be very sure that I am adding this topic
to my future video list, and will explore it in at least one, but
possibly more videos with great care and detail. The Americans are
certainly going to hate me for that, and will downvote the video, but
the truth
is more important than like/dislike ratios !
I will study the texts the next days, and will prepare some videos. I
am not sure when exactly I can work on them, but will try my best to
bring them soon.
Merci beaucoup monsieur, I speak a bit of French, too, mais je ne pratique pas souvent, je suis très desolée :)
Have a nice day, thanks again for the excellent sources and for bringing this to my attention, you are an excellent scholar 👍
Happy to have been useful to you for your nice channel, and also happy to have helped you to come closer to the truth.
Best
Willeime
Me too, thanks again !
Let's stay in contact, and don't hesitate to contact me again if you have some sources and/or advice
► La Chute de l'Empire Romain causée par le christianisme ?